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Diesel Engines.


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#1 Snow Man

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:25 PM

Should manufactures or owners be responsible for cleaning up the smog/pollution generated by Diesel engines?
Maybe tripling or even quadrupling the VED to force people to move to more modern technology that's less polluting.

Discuss.. :-P

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#2 purephase

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

I certainly think the most ridiculous thing about the new VED rates (apart from the fact they are so high) is that they are still effectively banging the same old drum on CO2, which is clearly not the most critical issue any more and favours diesel over petrol.

So I agree in principle - I would like to have seen them start to subsidise petrol VED by raising the diesel VED. I also think they should create a positive subsidy on gasoline vs. diesel at the filling station
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#3 Snow Man

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:26 PM

CO2 is a petrol problem, this was the big lie from a few years back. Yes diesel produces less CO2, but the NO2 is much worse and the particulates are carcegenic.

I've no doubt within a few years city's will be no go areas for powered diesel cars.
https://www.theguard...ution-in-europe

#4 Sj1000

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 08:07 PM

View PostSnow Man, on 10 March 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

Should manufactures or owners be responsible for cleaning up the smog/pollution generated by Diesel engines?
Maybe tripling or even quadrupling the VED to force people to move to more modern technology that's less polluting.

Discuss.. :-P


Manufacturers or owners to blame?
You must be kidding yes? I hope that emoji demonstrates it !!

When we were led by the nose for many years, as consumers, to buy diesel and contribute to the health of the planet ?
Now I know very little about exhaust emission science, but by the very fact I'm on here discussing it, means I probably know about a zillion times more than the average car buyer, who frankly does not give a shee-it, so long as it's legal and government approved.
If some/all government bodies wish to now formally admit all past mistakes, and say diesel is "THE environmental nightmare, and henceforth shall no more be manufactured"...........
Then, so be it, stop the production, I'll be happy to participate in the future.. green, electric, whatever,
However, back to the present.....
Please don't try to ban us existing owners from city centres, we who bought in good faith, or fine us for enetring, with the cars we've bought under your guidance !!,
Let them age and disappear naturally (the cars, not the governments) as if another decade of a few cars is going to really effect anything in the climate scheme of things.

So to answer the original question ( my answer) is, in terms of responsibility
Owners : 0 %
Manufacturers: 9%
Governments worldwide, collecting all manner of taxes etc: 91%
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#5 SteveMcB

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 09:13 PM

Petrol engines emit NOX as well, with the addition of adblue on the newer diesels I don't see too much changing in the short term at least. I can't see any UK government risking so many votes by alienating a massive percentage of the electorate with 2,3 or 400% vel increases. They've just introduced a new taxation scheme which makes no mention of NOX, that's how seriously they're taking it.
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#6 Snow Man

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 09:42 PM

UK government doesn't have a choice the EU are taking us to court to make us do something about it..
https://www.theguard...lution-breaches

It's certainly coming as is banning diesels in cities.
http://www.express.c...t-means-for-you

https://www.theguard...missions-values

#7 SteveMak

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 03:39 AM

Here are some fun facts:
  • Volkswagen is guilty of using what is legally defined as a "cheat device", which let their diesels meet lab-only legal emission levels. That's their crime. The fact that these affected vehicles emit many multiples of lab-legal emission while operating in the real world is okay, because there's no law against that.
    .
  • Here in North America, the media has focused almost exclusively on the cheat device angle, and not "real world vs lab-level" emissions. Consequently, the public here has been bamboozled into believing diesels are dirty while gasoline (petrol) engines aren't.
    .
  • Shortly after Dieselgate exploded onto the scene, the U.K. government performed their own real-world tests on VW's diesel. They then tested other diesels and found all of them, regardless of model or brand, emitted many times lab-legal levels while operating in real world conditions, and VW's diesels were not the worst offenders! They then expanded their scope to gasoline (petrol) vehicles and found that virtually all (very few exceptions) vehicles tested emitted many times the lab-legal emissions while operating in the real world.
    .
  • So like it or not, VW's vehicles are not the worst offenders, and a diesel engine was not the worst polluter. Yet Joe Q. Average believes in "dirty diesels" and that VW is the worst offender.

Please note that I am in no way condoning or excusing VW's criminality in breaking the law, nor am I attempting to "sugar coat" VW's offense(s). However, I am asserting that many people are mistaken in their beliefs in "dirty diesels", and in their beliefs that gasoline (petrol) engines are as "clean" as their "in lab only" numbers say they are. Their use in the real world is a completely different story, and it renders their "in lab only" numbers as fiction by comparison. It's one of the big reasons why various governments are hurriedly working on developing new, meaningful, relevant, emission testing methodology that will be instrumental in assessing real-world emissions, and reducing real-world auto emissions.

When that happens, and when auto manufacturers comply to these new standards, we'll see cleaner running vehicles, and cleaner air. When that happens, I don't care what technology you use to meet (or better) those real-world emission numbers. Burn buffalo paddies for all I care. Just be genuine in truly emitting much-diminished pollution while operating in the real world, as opposed to having reasonable lab numbers and doing more than an order of magnitude worse in the real world (as virtually every ICE four-wheeler does).
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#8 Sj1000

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 05:52 AM

View PostSnow Man, on 10 March 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

UK government doesn't have a choice the EU are taking us to court to make us do something about it..
https://www.theguard...lution-breaches

It's certainly coming as is banning diesels in cities.
http://www.express.c...t-means-for-you

https://www.theguard...missions-values


Didn't read it all, but I did see it says the gov. is hoping to phase out diesel by 2030.
That's fine if that's roughly the target, and the news should be more widespread.
Gives owners over a decade to phase out their diesel in their own way, and to avoid buying new.
Question is, for how much longer will manufacturers be allowed to produce diesel engine cars?
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#9 SQ-Raphster

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 09:32 AM

Gov doesn't need to legislate. Just need affordable electric cars that have decent range, plenty of charging stations and reasonable performance. Gov should concentrate on providing that to it's citizens, instead wasting time and money nannying on what we can or can't do!

Oh and if Brexit does happen who cares what the EU thinks!?
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#10 Snow Man

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 01:08 PM

Brexit wont change climate agreements.
Where does the electric come to charge the electric cars... 60% is still fossil fuels.

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#11 missile

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 04:06 PM

It is just more political nonsense to blame pollution onto diesel cars.

How much fossil fuel is used and damage to the environment, extracting those precious minerals needed for batteries?

What about the diesel fumes generated by commercial vehicles?

The fuel oil used to heat homes and to power ships is far worse for more toxic and damaging to the environment than diesel.
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#12 Snow Man

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 07:07 PM

I believe the science on Diesel engines is beyond doubt at this stage.
They just have to go be it commercial or private.

#13 SteveMcB

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 08:29 PM

View PostSnow Man, on 11 March 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

I believe the science on Diesel engines is beyond doubt at this stage.
They just have to go be it commercial or private.


Are you still moth balling your SQ, maybe better ditching it ASAP :mrgreen:
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#14 Snow Man

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 10:02 AM

Yes, it's going for sure and any replacement with be petrol or electric.

#15 SteveMcB

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:09 AM

I imagine owners of slightly older supercars might be getting a bit concerned as well, some/most of them aren't exactly NOx 'light' :mrgreen:

SQ5 plus comes up at 52mg/km with NGC rating of 57.

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#16 missile

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 01:25 PM

View PostSnow Man, on 11 March 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

I believe the science on Diesel engines is beyond doubt at this stage.
They just have to go be it commercial or private.


Like many sheep, you do not look beyond the headlines and are easily fooled by political spin :-(
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#17 Snow Man

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 04:26 PM

The politician are not involved yet - so it's nothing to do with politics... it's science with the greenies trying to make it headlines.
As for the R8, that's the old one and its V10 with double the cylinders, but a million time the fun - but not with that crappy gearbox.

WHO declared definitively diesel engines cause cancer. Its just time before the politicians jump on the tax band wagon and look to make money from it in the name of public health.

#18 SteveMcB

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 05:13 PM

View PostSnow Man, on 11 March 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

I believe the science on Diesel engines is beyond doubt at this stage.
They just have to go be it commercial or private.


Perhaps in xxx years time we will be totally green but in the shorter term do you really think it is even remotely viable to get rid of commercial and private diesels. Who's going to foot that mega billion bill? There would be rioting in the streets but, hauliers being off the road, nothing in the shops for them to loot.
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#19 missile

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 07:47 PM

Building a hydro electric power station would reduce our dependence on fossil fuels
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#20 Snow Man

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 08:39 PM

Not more than 50g/day - fat tax is already here
http://www.bbc.co.uk...health-38212608





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